NED LAGIN
NED LAGIN
Corry342 9/24/2014 05:38:00 PM
This is fantastic. All the confusing details and part-rumors, sorted out and all properly organized in one place. And it's great to get the confusing issue resolved of why Ned could sometimes be heard and sometimes not. It's also fascinating to see how much he played with members of the Grateful Dead outside of any formal context, just jamming with them in rehearsal studios or homes.
Having been fortunate to witness a Phil and Ned performance, on October 17, 1974, at Winterland, I thought I would mention how strange actually seeing them play really was. The Deadhead network was far less developed in those days, what with there being no internet and all, so I suspect that when I saw the Dead that night (the second night of the so-called "Last Five Nights") relatively few people had any idea about Phil and Ned. At earlier shows, all around the country and Europe, fans would have had even less of an idea what was going on. The Seastones album would not come out for several more months.
After the first set ended on October 17, there was the usual milling around. I can't recall if Phil came out before the lights went down or after, but there was the usual whooping. I think everyone expected Jerry and the boys to follow him out there. Instead, there was just Phil and a not-Keith playing an electric piano. Phil made some weird low noises, and I realized that other sounds were coming from the not-Keith guy. At first I wondered if they were introing a song, but after a while I realized it wasn't like that.
No announcer said anything like "ladies and gentlemen, Phil Lesh and Ned Lagin," nor was Ned's name even mentioned at the concert (although I can hardly think of anything less appropriate than some FM dj saying "let's put our hands together and give it up for Phil and Ned!"). I'm fairly certain that I only found out Ned's name because SF Chronicle writer Joel Selvin reviewed the Wednesday show (Oct 16) and the review appeared in the Friday (Oct 18) paper. I thought, "oh, the guy who played on 'Candyman.'"
Since the Dead played five nights at Winterland, at each show there must have been more people who'd been to a previous show, heard about it, or read Selvin's review. But the night I went it was an unexpected and strange experience that was not explained from the stage. In most cities, where the band played at most two and usually just one night, it must have been like that, a mysterious, unexplained interlude with Phil and a not-Keith who was never introduced.
Needless to say, nothing like that ever happened again. Sic transit gloria psychedelia, as the Romans used to say.
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Light Into Ashes9/24/2014 05:44:00 PM
Excellent work! This adds a lot to the available performance listings - some of these were previously unknown, and many new details included.
A piano can faintly be heard in the 4/7/71 post-drums jam, but it's difficult to make out much. Unfortunately the jam cuts after only two minutes, so we don't know how long it continued before they went into Not Fade Away. It's quite possible this show was multitracked for the live album, though, so a complete copy of the jam might be in the Vault. This is an unusually short show, possibly all just one set - at the end Jerry apologizes that they can't play more due to the curfew (which you also noted on 4/8/71). I couldn't tell how much of the rest of the show Ned might play in.
The summer '71 "Day in the Country" radio broadcast from Mickey Hart's ranch is news to me; you have to wonder how many of these ranch sessions are still in Hart's collection. Robbie Stokes (of the Devil's Kitchen band, kind of the "house band" at the Family Dog) once recalled, "I played guitar on a live radio broadcast with David Crosby, Mickey Hart, Jerry Garcia, John Cippolina and Phil Lesh." (I'd thought this might refer to the 8/21/71 jams, but now it sounds like maybe he was a part of the "Day in the Country" broadcast).
Good to hear that the 9/18/74 soundcheck jam with Ned was taped and still exists - that part of the soundcheck doesn't circulate. I find these late-'74 full-band jams with Ned fascinating; and clearly Garcia appreciated them as well - he said in a November '74 interview, "When we went to Europe this last time we got into some new directions in improvisation which have been the opening of new, fertile ground."
A couple suggestions - you might want to go through and remove the "[add link]" notes. Also, some of the '74 Ned & Phil sets are not available on circulating tapes, and you may want to specifically note those as unavailable.
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JGMF 9/26/2014 08:26:00 PM
xx-xx-71 - "A Day In The Country"
Gaaahhhhhhhhh
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JGMF 9/26/2014 08:39:00 PM
11/28/73 was identified in the paper as a Benefit for 3HO North Yoga.
preview: "Garcia to Play In Yoga Benefit," Oakland Tribune, November 21, 1973, p. 26.
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Anonymous 10/01/2014 02:32:00 PM
http://newspaperarchive.com article is in the lower left corner:
Garcia to Play In Yoga Benefit
Jerry Garcia awd Mickey Hart will perform in a benefit concert for 3HO North next Wednesday at 7 p.m. the Palace of Fine Arts Theatre, 3301 Lyon St., San Francisco. The Sat Nam Singers and Ajari and the Mantric Sun Band will be on the same program.
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JGMF 9/26/2014 08:44:00 PM
3/26/75: Herb Caen reports that they changed the name of the song (or maybe project) from "Blues For Faisal" to "Blues For Allah".
Caen, Herb. 1975. Follow the Bouncing Dots. San Francisco Chronicle, March 28, 1975, p. 17.
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JGMF 9/26/2014 08:47:00 PM
"04-29-75 - Grateful Dead rehearsal at the Bob Weir studio in Mill Valley, CA - Ned plays on "Swing Warm Ups" and other jams but not on the "E-A-C" jam."
Was Garcia present at this session?
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Light Into Ashes 9/26/2014 10:01:00 PM
Garcia is certainly on the tape:
http://www.dead.net/
Two keyboards are definitely present on "Swing Warmups."
However, there is a Blues for Allah session where Garcia doesn't appear to be present - the session dated 4/17/75 on the Archive. According to the notes, John Cipollina, Bob Weir, Phil Lesh, Ned Lagin, David Crosby & Bill Kreutzmann are listed as playing - so, no Garcia or Keith. (I think this session is also duplicated on our 3/17/75 tape, everything from track 11 to the end; almost all of which is clearly just Weir & Crosby on guitars. Possibly there's a date mixup. In any case, Ned's tapes seem to be more complete than what we have, since several of his songs are listed here on both 3/17 and 4/17 which are not apparent on our tapes.)
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Jerry's Brokendown Palaces 10/01/2014 08:35:00 AM
At the 3/14/74 Grateful Dead Meeting:
Phil and Ned would like to play during GD breaks. Dave (Parker?) said the cost of one extra person is 5k without hotels. It was decided Ned wouldn't be going out on the May tour (six shows) and when would be discussed later.[1]
1.)^Grateful Dead Meeting Notes, 1974-03-14, MS 332, Ser. 3, Box 2:9, GDR: Show Files: Summer east Coast Tours, #1-2-Ticket requests, comp requests, gig contact lists, correspondence, Grateful Dead Archives, Special Collections, McHenry Library, UC Santa Cruz, CA.
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Light Into Ashes10/02/2014 08:10:00 PM
Fascinating... So they were planning it a few months in advance, and Phil & Ned's debut was delayed for economic reasons!
There must be so much information in the GD Meeting notes over the years that has never been made public... I suspect our understanding of crucial years like '74-76 is extremely limited as a result.
JGMF 11/30/2014 07:12:00 AM
You are absolutely right. Ironically, these hippies appear to have met like clockwork in official formation.
Why would 1 additional person cost $5k, without hotels?
"Why would 1 additional person cost $5k, without hotels?"
Presumably refers to the cost of taking the person on the particular tour in question, dealing with their equipment set-up, transportation, food (but not including lodging).
Incornsyucopia 12/02/2017 11:13:00 AM
According to one person who would know, the highly exaggerated $5k figure was intended to dissuade the proposal from being approved. It apparently did serve to delay it, but it was apparently Garcia's later insistence that it happen that ultimately overcame the resistance within the family.
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Anonymous10/01/2014 02:11:00 PM
you can read all about the albums - and much, much more - in 'the compleat grateful dead discography' http://tcgdd.freeyellow.com
I-) ihor
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jerme 11/23/2014 04:15:00 PM
There is an entry on Gans GDHour #344 that may contain Ned under a date not listed here...
It is labeled 5/7/75 Rehearsal with Crosby (2 takes of King Solomons Marbles), it sure sounds like there are two keyboards (one in each channel)
Have had no luck finding more about this session, perhaps it now circulates under a different date?
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jerme11/25/2014 06:29:00 PM
It currently has a couple seeds at Lossless Legs if you want to jump on the torrent.
or i could try to get the two 5/7/75 tracks uploaded somewhere if youd prefer
nedbase 11/26/2014 07:17:00 AM
thanks, jerme, for the info. i have been able to get gdh 344 and i will update nedbase.
I-) ihor
nedbase 11/28/2014 10:01:00 AM
i have to extend a special 'thank you!' to david gans and steve silberman for the 05-07-75 sessions and for incentivising me to keep looking, and finding, the 02-19-75 and 03-05-75 sessions.
I-) ihor
nedbase 11/28/2014 10:03:00 AM
fyi...
the 05-07-75 session material appears on gratetful dead hour no. 344 and can be found at http://www.shnflac.net
the 02-19-75 and 03-05-75 session material appears on grateful dead hour no. 359 and can be found at http://www.shnflac.net
I-) ihor
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Anonymous 11/27/2014 07:59:00 PM
This is the most wonderful thing I have ever seen. Thank you.
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Anonymous 11/28/2014 01:56:00 PM
Very interesting and extends my knowledge of Ned's involvement with the Dead immensely. Thank you!
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Anonymous 1/03/2015 10:34:00 AM
A new audience source of 7-27-74 Roanoke posted to DIME today includes a 12:24 Seastones excerpt.
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SIRMick 1/15/2015 12:05:00 PM
I was just going to mention that too. I wonder if it really is from that show!
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nedbase 6/01/2015 07:24:00 AM
i have to add a special 'thanks!' to jesse jarnow for asking about the 04-29-75 sessions.
let me also acknowledge the enthusiastic and continued support of george m. prescott jr. - thank you!
I-) ihor
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Anonymous 7/23/2015 04:20:00 PM
Thank you for this very informative site especially for an under-represented but very interesting topic. Many of us have been wondering if Ned was at 6-16-74 Des Moines, partly available on Road Trips 2.3, where, especially in “Playing in the Band” you hear very Ned-like, or certainly un-Keith-like synth sounds. There does not seem to be any definitive evidence that Ned played the show, or if his gear was there and Keith was using it; but there are some witness accounts scattered across the internet that go as far as saying Ned played Seastones that day; I was wondering if you had any opinion or information regarding that show.
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nedbase 10/15/2015 08:33:00 AM
at the june 16, 1974 show, keith godchaux is playing keyboards. he switches from acoustic piano to electric piano during EOTWorld and stays with that for the rest of the 06-16-74 concert. there may be a couple of combined reasons why he sounds the way he does. first, there may be a bad cable or connector. second, keith may be trying out some other equipment that he normally would not be using, possibly an effects pedal or some VCOs that he was asked to play with. he normally would not have used those on his own.
photos of the stage from that concert do not show ned's three keyboards set up anywhere on stage, nor are any of ned's equipment cases, etc. seen anywhere.
I-) ihor
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Anonymous 10/05/2015 12:56:00 PM
here is a pic of Ned Lagin playing with the Dead 70-11-21 Boston !!
http://credo.library.umass.edu
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nedbase 10/08/2015 08:29:00 AM
thanks, ruppi43 - great find.
that is ned (back to camera) playing the electric piano at the 11-21-70 concert. there are six of those photos:
http://credo.library.umass.edu/
http://credo.library.umass.edu
http://credo.library.umass.edu
http://credo.library.umass.edu
http://credo.library.umass.edu
http://credo.library.umass.edu
I-) ihor
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Drew Stone 2/05/2016 02:24:00 PM
I'm confused. This guy travelled the country with the Dead to play 20 min. of music a night?
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nedbase 2/06/2016 12:29:00 PM
the 'ned and phil' sets only sometimes included music from 'seastones', the composition. other compositions of ned's were used for frameworks or 'scores' for improvisation. these were manifested in sheet music, notes, synthesizer patches, and/or pre-recorded tapes played with performances. some people call the 'group' with jerry, mickey, and david crosby as 'seastones'. some people called the 'ned and phil' sets sets as 'seastones' but they were not. some of the 'ned and phil' sets included jerry, whether or not they led into ned performing with the full band. band issues determined what happened when at particular shows, but ned's fender rhodes 88 was always on stage for both electronic music and possible transitions to the full GD. the very first 'ned and phil' in miami on 06-23-74 was like that, leading through a couple of jams and 'dark star'.
take a listen to the 06-23-74, 09-11-74, 09-21-74, and the october 1974 concerts for some great exemplars of ned playing with phil, with jerry, and with the band. you can read through the '1974' entries up above for links to that music.
I-) ihor
Drew Stone 2/06/2016 02:50:00 PM
Wow I can actually hear him playing on the "Eyes" from 9/11/74. Thank you.
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Jerry's Brokendown Palaces 4/13/2016 02:50:00 PM
Did Jerry and Ned play with Crosby on board his Mayan sailboat in 1971-72? I read it somewhere and now can not find it.
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nedbase 5/15/2016 11:15:00 AM
From Ned:
I played with David (Crosby) at his home in Mill Valley, at Mickey's, at Bob's, in my Fairfax one bedroom apartment, and at Wally Heider's studio in San Francisco (1970), but not on his boat. We also hung out when we both were staying at Chateau Marmot in Los Angeles. I was there to finish "Seastones".
I made a couple of visits alone and with Phil to Sausalito when David and the "Mayan" (his sail boat) was docked there (we had lunch once). There was no piano or other keyboard on the boat, so there was no possibility of playing together. But once David played and sang some tunes for me on the boat.
When, with Jerry and Phil, I visited Grace (Slick) and Paul (Kantner) at their house right on Stinson Beach, David sailed in on his boat and moored just offshore in Bolinas Bay.
I always loved David's song "The Lee Shore". It deeply resonated with me because I grew up with family boats, first on Long Island Sound, later on Long Island's south shore and far from land on the Atlantic Ocean all the way out to the Gulf Stream, and in the Florida Keys. On fishing boats, many days and nights. Fishing and swimming around and under water.
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Anonymous 4/14/2016 03:40:00 PM
hi!
does anyone know what the timings are for the different movements of Seastones? i tried to break it down once based on transitions in the music, and came up short. thanks!!
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nedbase 4/20/2016 09:06:00 AM
Ned is investigating this, and this is hours of work to listen and figure out.
Timings vary for different versions/releases. The CD times are known to be different than the LP and should be viewed as standing as they do, not as the canonic versions of "Seastones", and not to be made to be equal. The new upcoming "Seastones" CDs release track times are listed in the booklet (80 tracks) and do constitute the exact times as composed for each "Seastones" moment-form.
In the meantime, if you have come up with your own timings for the "Seastones" CD, feel free to share them here.
I-) ihor
Anonymous 4/22/2016 08:36:00 AM
golly! 1) a new seastones cd? 2) the ryko cd is a different mix/assembly of the material than the record? verrry interesting! more info?
Anonymous 9/13/2016 09:48:00 AM
These are the track timings that I came up with for the Rykodisc RCD 40193 CD version of "Seastones":
The December 1975 Version
1. I 5:23
2. II 1:22
3. III 0:52
4. IV 11:10
5. V 3:36
6. VI 8:52
The Original February 1975 Version
7. I 3:36
8. II (Vocals) 4:05
9. III A 4:38
10. III B 5:38
11. IV A (Vocals) 0:19
12. IV B (Vocals) 0:18
13. V B 4:47
14. VI (Vocals) 5:41
15. VII 13:42
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nedbase 4/27/2016 10:46:00 AM
Ned has an official website Spiritcats.com where he writes extensively about his photography, art, and music, and, has several galleries of wonderful images to explore.
I-) ihor
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Anonymous 10/13/2016 04:50:00 PM
Hello Ned,
Nedbase does not list you performing with the Grateful Dead on 6/16/74 at the Des Moines State Fair. It is known that there was no Seastones performance on this date. However, there are some eyewitness accounts (at least one on dead.net) stating that you played some keys at this show. And there is a discussion currently on dead.net (on the Dave's Picks 19 discussion board) about this. Many folks agree that the keys being played on Big River, for instance, does not sound like Keith Godchaux' playing at all. I was wondering if you could shed some light on this? Perhaps, if you don't have records beyond what is on Nedbase for this kind of thing, maybe you could listen to the Big River played during that show on Archive.org and see if you think that is you playing keyboards? If you'd rather not, I understand. Thank you very much for taking the time to read this. And best of look with the new Seastones project. I'm looking forward to that. :)
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nedbase 10/28/2016 09:56:00 AM
Ned was emailed about the 06-16-74 Des Moines concert, and was sent recordings. Here is his response:
Thanks for the Des Moines CDs. I have listened to Big River and Playing in the Band.
I have no memory of the Des Moines gig at all, and when I don't remember or just unsure of some date I don't think it should be included in Nedbase, or only to be mentioned there as being researched. I do not know how to respond to someone who saw me there playing. It is possible I have no memory but not at all likely. I do not remember exactly my tour travel plans, but we planned to start the Ned and Phil sets (and segue into Jerry and the GD) first in Miami, and not in the earlier cities.
The Big River is not me. Could be Keith on some other new keyboard he was trying out, and perhaps with an organ kind of touch, much different from a piano, and so if it's Keith he might sound different. Or Keith using some new effects pedal or setup?
At the beginning of Playing in the Band there is a buzz coming in rhythm with the tune. It occurs during the first verse singing, especially apparent when Donna is singing too. Could be a noise coming from an open faulty mic overloading picking up stage playing, or a bad cable, or an impedance mismatch for someone's audio feed (an added new keyboard?), or a blown preamp or amp? Also it occurs during singing which means it's not my setup because I always played through the vocal system, and when there was singing I would be switched out of the PA and could only be heard on stage where I had my own nearby monitors.
Later in the jam there is a synth. but I would not use a synthesizer to play on Playing in the Band, at least not that way - I would not think it appropriate, having played it several times before and since (including when in 1970 in protoform it was called the Main Ten and I first played organ, and otherwise later after 1970 when I played it on electric piano). Also, whoever it was seemed to be not familiar with the settings on the synth or keyboard and was trying things out to find a patch/sound that worked, and maybe did not know it was going out initially through the PA. Could be Keith trying out something new?
Sometimes during the middle and later jam it sounds like there are two keyboards (or two players?) on Playing in the Band, sometimes only one, and the sound of the second one is like mine and much like my touch/sound/style, different from Keith's usual sound (perhaps I had started influencing Keith in certain contexts?). But it's generally louder than how I was most times placed in the PA mix (being the sixth player in the mix) which argues strongly for it being Keith. I know of no sit-ins by any others during that tour except those by me, and no mention of others ever since.
I listened to the beginning of the next tune (Tennessee Jed) and it has some noise sweeps and other synth sounds on it as well during singing. Cannot be my set up. With all the PA inputs used when there is singing it has to be part of the keyboard setup output. And sounds I would, of course, never make on that tune.
By the way, getting my equipment out of the tour big-rig trucks for someone else to play would be very difficult because it was all packed deep in, to be unloaded first in Miami. Also, the synth does not sound like my Arp Odyssey, nor my Eu (which only could be setup by me).
My opinion in summary is that, having no memory of the day and there being certain technical facts, it is not me in Des Moines, and it should not be credited to me in Nedbase.
Thanks to all for their interest!
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nedbase 11/03/2016 06:52:00 AM
I asked Ned why the cover of his electric piano is off when it is on stage being played. Here is his response:
I have been asked by several people why my Fender Rhodes 88 electric piano cover is off, exposing the piano's "tines", which vibrate when struck by each piano key hammer mechanism, and their associated pickups, as can be seen in photos from Winterland October 1974 on Nedbase, and in the Paris video from 09-21-74. I almost always played it this way allowing me to play the electric piano's individual "tines" (like a "prepared piano"), and to facilitate feedback with my pre-amp monitor setup immediately behind me, and to sometimes create feedback with Jerry's guitar pickups when he played close to me (similar to what we did together with my clavichord on 02-18-71).
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Unknown 1/05/2017 05:40:00 PM
Perhaps this is a complicated question, but how come Ned all the sudden stopped playing/jamming with the Dead and basically exited that universe altogether?
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Unknown 1/05/2017 05:41:00 PM
Rather, perhaps it's a question with a complicated answer...
nedbase v1/10/2017 06:33:00 AM
Thanks for the question. While there is some information in earlier interviews, Ned and I have talked in the past about adding, at the end of the NedBase chronology, some information about his leaving the Grateful Dead family and music. I will email Ned and ask him.
Hopefully in the next week or so, when I get something added to NedBase, I will email you and let you know.
I-) ihor
Incornsyucopia 12/02/2017 11:17:00 AM
Ned explains why in his interview with David Gans published in Conversations with the Dead: https://books.google.ca
deadheadned 12/25/2017 09:14:00 PM
thanks for the tip on this new edition of Gans' book. just put it on hold at the library, and am eagerly looking forward to some great stories from a fellow Ned !
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Smith 9/28/2017 11:18:00 PM
This is the first time i read your blog and admire that you have posted on this...I really found useful.Keep updated.
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Light Into Ashes 11/28/2018 12:40:00 PM
It turns out that the "11-21-70" tape is not actually from that date, but is a mislabeled portion of 4-3-70 Cincinnati. No wonder Ned can't be heard!
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nedbase 11/28/2018 01:46:00 PM
thanks, LIA. who has the 11-21-70 tape?
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ruppi43 1/04/2019 01:10:00 AM
Boston Music Hall April 71
https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth-oai:rn302j70q
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nedbase 1/04/2019 12:20:00 PM
thank you, ruppi43!
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The Reconstructor 10/13/2019 10:01:00 PM
Considering the sheer number of gigs he played in 70/71, his contributing to the American Beauty studio sessions, and his hanging around the band and ther side projects so much back then, it surprises me he didn't get the gig as their keyboard player before Godchaux came along.
Was he even considered? And if he was, why didn't he get the job? Thanks a lot for all this precious info!
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Light Into Ashes 12/16/2020 11:24:00 PM
This is a very belated reply - but even if the Dead had considered him, it seems Ned wanted to keep attending school in Massachusetts. In '70-72 he only visited California in the summers for little spurts of jamming & recording, then each fall would head back to school. (He graduated MIT in 1971, then went to grad school at Brandeis for a year.) He only moved to California for good in 1973.
I don't know if the Dead did more than ask him to sit in occasionally, but my impression was that he was more interested in pursuing his own music than becoming a Dead sideman. After Keith arrived, he felt that Keith was a much better fit for the Dead than he would have been.
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ruppi43 12/27/2021 11:59:00 PM
see 3 pics from 71-02-18 with Ned on stage: https://www.wolfgangs.com/concert-and-band-photos/?t=Joe%20Sia%20grateful%20dead
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nedbase 12/28/2021 11:03:00 AM
thanks, ruppi43!